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STATE v. KLESER

Supreme Court of Wisconsin.
Jul 16, 2010
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ORDER

KATHLEEN CARDONE, District Judge

On this day, the Court came to consider the Motions to Dismiss filed by Defendants Delgado, Lucero, Gonzales, and Morales (Docs. No. 4, 5, 19, 20). For the reasons set forth below, these Motions are DENIED.

I. BACKGROUND

Plaintiff Lilia E. Lawler is a resident of El Paso, Texas. Pl.'s Original Pet. 2 ("Orig. Pet.") (Doc. No. 1 at 9-23). Defendants Flor Angelica Delgado, Patricia Holguin Lucero, Domingo Gonzales III, and Manuel Morales are also residents of El Paso, Texas and were Plaintiff's co-workers. Id. at 3-4, 11, 14. Defendant Miratek Corporation ("Miratek") is a Texas corporation headquartered in El Paso which employed Lawler starting in February 2006. Id. at 2-3. Miratek fired Lawler in July 2008. Id. at 3. Plaintiff filed suit on May 21, 2009, in the 120th Judicial District Court of El Paso County, Texas, alleging statutory employment claims as well as common law defamation claims. See Def.'s Notice of Removal (Doc. No. 1). Defendants filed for removal to federal court on July 6, 2009, in the United States District Court for the Western District of Texas. Id. The Court severed the case on March 2, 2010, remanding the statutory employment claims to state court and keeping the defamation claims in federal court. See Order, Mar. 2, 2010 at 15 (Doc. No. 49).

Lawler worked for Miratek from February 2006 to July 2008, first as a Safety Officer, and then as a Hazardous Waste Facility Program Manager. Orig. Pet. 3. Plaintiff alleges that Defendants Delgado, Lucero, Gonzales, and Morales defamed her prior to and at the time of her termination by making verbal and written statements accusing her of misuse of government employees and property, falsifying employment time sheets, nepotism, having a sexual relationship with a Contract Officer Representative, and causing Defendant Delgado's miscarriages. Id. at 14. Plaintiff claims that these statements were false, misleading, and made with intent to harm Plaintiff. Id. Plaintiff also claims that these statements have injured her business, profession and occupation, including loss of earnings and earning capacity. Id. All defamatory events took place at Fort Bliss Military Base, a federal enclave over which the United States Government exercises exclusive federal jurisdiction. See Notice of Removal 3.

Several Defendants have moved to dismiss Lawler's defamation claims. See generally Def. Flor Angelica Delgado's Mot. to Dismiss ("Delgado Mot.") (Doc. No. 4), Def. Patricia Holguin Lucero's Mot. to Dismiss ("Lucero Mot.") (Doc. No. 5), Def. Domingo Gonzalez's Mot. to Dismiss ("Gonzalez Mot.") (Doc. No. 19), Def. Manuel Morales' Mot. to Dismiss ("Morales Mot.") (Doc. No. 20), Def. Francisco Gomez's Mot. to Dismiss ("Gomez Mot.") (Doc. No. 36). As these Motions are virtually identical to one another, this Order will cite to the Delgado Motion for ease of reference, but the reference should be understood to be to all the motions. Moreover, the Defendants who have filed the instant motions will be referred to as the "moving Defendants" throughout.

II. DISCUSSION

A. Rule 12(b)(6) Standard

A motion to dismiss pursuant to Rule 12(b)(6) challenges a complaint on the basis that it fails to state a claim upon which relief may be granted. FED. R. CIV. P. 12(b)(6). In ruling on a Rule 12(b)(6) motion, the court must accept well-pleaded facts as true and view them in a light most favorable to the plaintiff. Calhoun v. Hargrove, 312 F.3d 730, 733 (5th Cir. 2002); Collins v. Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, 224 F.3d 496, 498 (5th Cir. 2000). Still, "a plaintiff's obligation to provide the grounds of his entitlement to relief requires more than labels and conclusions, and a formulaic recitation of the elements of a cause of action will not do." Bell Atl. Corp. v. Twombly, 550 U.S. 544, 555 (2007) (internal citations and quotation marks omitted); see also Plotkin v. IP Axess, Inc., 407 F.3d 690, 696 (5th Cir. 2005) (stating that a court need not accept as true "conclusory allegations, unwarranted factual inferences, or legal conclusions.").

Though a complaint need not contain "detailed" factual allegations, the "[f]actual allegations must be enough to raise a right to relief above the speculative level on the assumption that all the allegations in the complaint are true." Twombly, 550 U.S. at 555 (internal citation omitted). Thus, to survive a motion to dismiss, a plaintiff's complaint must allege sufficient facts "to state a claim to relief that is plausible on its face." Id. at 570. Nevertheless, "a well-pleaded complaint may proceed even if it strikes a savvy judge that actual proof of those facts is improbable, and `that a recovery is very remote and unlikely.'" Id. at 556 (quoting Scheuer v. Rhodes, 416 U.S. 232, 236 (1974)).

B. Pleading Standard in Defamation Cases

Defendants argue that the Court should apply heightened pleading requirements to Plaintiff's Original Petition; specifically, that "a plaintiff must specifically plead the time and place of the publication." See Delgado Mot. 2 (citing Jackson v. Dallas Indep. Sch. Dist. No. 3:98-CV-1079, 1998 WL 386158, at *5 (N.D. Tex. Jul. 2, 1998)). Some federal courts have recognized such a requirement as being a uniquely heightened one applicable to defamation claims. See Jackson, 1998 WL 386158, at *5 (characterizing this as "more particular pleading"). This comports with traditional state-law approaches which require more specific pleadings in defamation actions. See, e.g., In re Jennings, 203 S.W.3d 32, 34 n. 2 (Tex. Ct. App. 2006). In fact, the moving Defendants appear to invoke the Texas pleading standards specifically when they argue that Lawler is "required to specifically plead the nature of the defamatory statements that were made, the time the alleged statements were made, and the place or forum in which they were made." Compare Delgado Mot. 2 with In re Jennings, 203 S.W.3d at 34 n. 2.

The better view, however, is that there is no special pleading requirement in federal court for a defamation action, as pleadings standards are a procedural matter, and no such requirement is set forth in the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. See Shady Grove Orthopedic Assocs., P.A. v. Allstate Ins. Co., 130 S. Ct. 1431, 1441 (2010) (observing that pleadings standards are considered procedural, not substantive, and that federal procedural rules pre-empt rival state rules for proceedings in federal courts); see also Barber v. Nationwide Commc'ns, Inc., No. 3:95-CV-656-H, 1995 WL 940517, at *3 (N.D. Tex. May 30, 1995) (rejecting the heightened defamation pleading standard used in Texas state courts); see also Stabler v. N.Y. Times, Co., 569 F. Supp. 1131, 1138 (S.D. Tex. 1983) (stating that a complaint in a diversity jurisdiction libel case governed by state law need only satisfy the notice requirements of Rule 8 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure). "The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure impose no special pleading requirements for defamation as they do for a specified list of other matters." Croixland Properties Ltd. P'ship v. Corcoran, 174 F.3d 213, 215 n. 2 (D.C. Cir. 1999) (citing FED. R. CIV. P. 9, which lists the claims requiring enhanced pleadings, and noting that defamation is not included). However, the complaint must contain sufficient detail to put the defendants on notice of the statements alleged to be defamatory and allow them to mount a defense. See Barber, 1995 WL 940517, at *3 (citing Liguori v. Alexander, 495 F. Supp. 641, 647 (S.D.N.Y. 1980)).

All the same, state law provides the substantive law for the tort of defamation, and federal courts apply federal pleading standards to the substantive elements of the tort as defined by state law. See Caster v. Hennessey, 781 F.2d 1569, 1570 (11th Cir. 1986). Though the instant case arises under federal enclave jurisdiction, the substantive law of the common law tort of defamation is incorporated from the law of the surrounding state. See Mater v. Holley, 200 F.2d 123, 124-25 (5th Cir. 1953). Accordingly, the Court views the instant case as having a posture similar to that of a diversity jurisdiction case, where the substantive law of a state is applied in a federal forum using federal procedures.

C. Analysis

To state a claim for defamation, a plaintiff's complaint must set out sufficient factual allegations showing: (1) that Defendants published a statement; (2) that the statement was defamatory concerning the Plaintiff; and (3) that Defendants acted with negligence regarding the falsity of the statement. See Fields v. Keith, 174 F. Supp. 2d 464, 473 (N.D. Tex. 2001); see also WFAA-TV, Inc., v. McLemore, 978 S.W.2d 568, 571 (Tex. 1998) (stating that simple negligence as to truthfulness is a sufficient degree of fault when the plaintiff is not a public figure). "If a statement is slanderous per se, no independent proof of damage to the plaintiff's reputation or of mental anguish is required, as the slander itself gives rise to a presumption of general damages." Bingham v. Sw. Bell Yellow Pages, Inc., No. 2-06-229-CV, 2008 WL 163551, at *3 (Tex. Ct. App. Jan. 17, 2008) (citing Bentley v. Bunton, 94 S.W.3d 561, 604 (Tex. 2002)).

1. Publication

For the first element of defamation, Lawler must allege that the moving Defendants published a statement. Publication is defined as the disclosure of the defamatory statement by the maker to a third party; that is, disclosure to someone other than the subject of the statement. See Doe v. SmithKline Beecham Corp., 855 S.W.2d 248, 259 (Tex. Ct. App. 1993). While not the model of clarity, Lawler's pleadings make at least some direct allegations of publication. For instance, Lawler avers that "there were attempts by male subordinate Miratek employees to hold Ms. Lawler in a false light to the government employees over seeing [sic] the contract." Orig. Pet. 4. Read together with her defamation count, this plausibly sets forth an allegation of publication by Defendants Gomez, Gonzalez and Morales. See id. at 14. Furthermore, Lawler avers that "untrue rumors" of her "having an affair with Mr. Ismael Delgado" were published to Sylvia Waggoner. Id. at 5. Read together with the allegations set forth in the defamation count, this plausibly sets forth another allegation of publication to a third party by the Defendants named there. See id. at 14.

Several of the moving Defendants argue that Lawler does not adequately specify their involvement in the defamatory publications, stating that "Lawler attributes these generalized statements to Miratek," and not the moving Defendants. See, e.g., Gonzalez Mot. 4. While Lawler's pleadings indeed state that "Miratek made statements accusing Ms. Lawler of aiding in theft and dishonesty," the pleadings also specifically name "Patricia Bayer, Flor Angelica Delgado, Stan Green, Francisco Gomez, Domingo Gonzales III [sic], Manuel Morales, and Issac Trejo" as participants in the publication, in the immediately preceding sentence. Orig. Pet. 14. Thus, Lawler does attribute the defamatory statements to the moving Defendants as well.

2. Defamation concerning Plaintiff

For the second element of defamation, Lawler must plead that the published statements were defamatory concerning herself. See Fields, 174 F. Supp. 2d at 473. Here, Plaintiff's Complaint identifies the nature of the defamatory statements made by Defendants as statements accusing her of misuse of government employees and property, falsifying employment time sheets, nepotism, having a sexual relationship with a Contract Officer Representative, and causing Defendant Delgado's miscarriages. Orig. Pet. 14. Her pleadings aver that these statements concerned her directly — they were not veiled statements that referred to her only obliquely — and the nature of the statements cited by Lawler, sounding in theft and sexual impropriety, are defamatory on their face. Id.; see also 50 Am. Jur. 2d Libel and Slander § 137 (2010) (discussing defamation per se).

Under federal pleading rules, a plaintiff need not plead the exact defamatory language; rather, she merely has set out enough information in her Complaint to put defendants on notice of the conduct at issue. See Pirre v. Printing Dev., Inc., 432 F. Supp. 840, 843 (S.D.N.Y. 1977) (holding that pleading the "gist" of slanderous conversations is sufficient to give notice to defendant). In the instant case there is enough information in Plaintiff's Complaint to inform the moving Defendants of the content of the statements and the workplace context in which they were made. There is also enough information in the pleadings to inform the moving Defendants that the conduct alleged is defamatory about Lawler in an employment context, given that the statements "[concern a] person in the capacity of an employee" and are alleged to "have caused injury to the person's business, trade, profession, or office." See Elizabeth D. Lauzon, Annotation, Statements Reflecting Upon Nongovernmental Employee as Defamation Per Se — Injury to Plaintiff's Business, Trade, Profession, or Office, 52 A.L.R.6th 271 (2010). As such, Plaintiff's Complaint adequately alleges that the statements were defamatory to her.

3. Negligence

Negligence regarding the truth or falsity of the negative statements is the third element of defamation. See Fields, 174 F. Supp. 2d at 473. Lawler avers that the statements at issue were "false and misleading and were made with the intent to harm Ms. Lawler and her reputation. The false statements were made with actual knowledge that they were false[,] or [with] reckless indifference to whether they were true or false." Orig. Pet. 14. While this statement alleges this element of the tort in so many words, it also is, in a sense, conclusory. Conclusory allegations of elements of a claim are generally insufficient to state a claim. See Twombly, 550 U.S. at 555. However, in defamation cases, there is very little that can be practically added on this point, beyond the bare assertion that the statements at issue were false, and that the defendants did or should have known that. Accordingly, courts have been reluctant to press for significant additional detail on this element. See Robinson v. Radio One, Inc. ___ F. Supp. 2d. ___, 2010 WL 606683, at *5-6 (N.D. Tex. Feb. 19, 2010) (accepting plaintiff's averment that he is not a homosexual as adequately pleading the falsity of certain statements which implied that he was a homosexual, and not demanding further particular detail on the issue of pleading negligence). Therefore, this element is satisfied as well.

4. Proffered defenses

The moving Defendants also attempt to invoke a defense of privilege, asserting that "to the extent Lawler is claiming that Delgado made defamatory statements in communications with the EEOC, the claim is barred on its face because statements made in judicial and quasi-judicial proceedings are absolutely privileged." Delgado Mot. 2 n. 1. However, there is no indication on the face of the pleadings that Lawler's defamation claims are predicated on statements made to the EEOC, and the moving Defendants do not cite to a particular instance where she does try to predicate her defamation claims on such activities. Because an affirmative defense may be considered on a Rule 12(b)(6) motion only when its applicability is apparent of the face of the pleadings, the Court denies any relief on this basis at this juncture. See EPCO Carbon Dioxide Prods., Inc. v. JP Morgan Chase Bank, 467 F.3d 466, 570 (5th Cir. 2006) ("Although dismissal under rule 12(b)(6) may be appropriate based on a successful affirmative defense, that defense must appear on the face of the complaint.").

The moving Defendants also argue that

Lawler's attempt to raise new factual allegations in her response [] and declaration is procedurally flawed and does not cure the deficiencies of her petition. In ruling on a 12(b)(6) motion, the court is limited to a review of the pleadings which consists of the plaintiff's complaint and any documents attached thereto.

Delgado Reply 4.

The moving Defendants cite no authority for this proposition, and it is too narrow as a statement of law. District courts are to review responses to dismissal motions for new or enhanced factual averments that, if incorporated into the complaint, would make it sufficient for Rule 12(b)(6) purposes. Jacquez v. Procunier, 801 F.2d 789, 793 (5th Cir. 1986) (ruling on a civil rights claim). If a court finds such sufficient averments, it should not dismiss the complaint. See id. In the instant case, Lawler has used her Response to expand on her averments to a considerable degree. See, e.g., Lilia E. Lawler's Resp. to Flor Angelica Delgado's Mot. 2-9 (Doc. No. 16). Having reviewed these expanded averments, the Court finds that they provide Defendants an additional amount of context and particularity, which should enable the moving Defendants to understand the nature of Lawler's Complaint and help them mount a defense. Accordingly, the Court does not disregard Lawler's Response in the context of the instant Motions.

III. CONCLUSION

For the foregoing reasons, the Motions to Dismiss submitted by Defendants Delgado, Lucero, Gonzales, and Morales (Docs. No. 4, 5, 19, 20) are hereby DENIED.

SO ORDERED.

¶ 53. We begin our interpretation of Wis. Stat. § 970.032 with the language of the statute. State ex. rel. Kalal v. Circuit Court for Dane County, 2004 WI 58, ¶ 45, 271 Wis.2d 633, 681 N.W.2d 110. Our examination of the language incorporates the statutory history of the section and the statutory history of related sections, as set out in ¶¶ 39-52, supra, to establish context.

¶ 54. When a juvenile under exclusive original jurisdiction is charged with one of the offenses set out in Wis. Stat. § 938.183(1), the juvenile has a right to a preliminary examination. The juvenile may waive that right.

[I]f a preliminary examination is held regarding a juvenile who is subject to the original jurisdiction of the court of criminal jurisdiction under s. 938.183(1), the court shall first determine whether there is probable cause to believe that the juvenile has committed the violation of which he or she is accused under the circumstances specified in s. 938.183(1)(a) [or] (am), . . . whichever is applicable.

Wis. Stat. § 970.032(1) (emphasis added).

¶ 55. A preliminary examination under § 970.032(1) is different from a preliminary examination under Wis. Stat. § 970.03(1). Under § 970.03(1), the statutory purpose of the hearing is to determine "if there is probable cause to believe a felony has been committed by the defendant." Wis. Stat. § 970.03(1) (emphasis added). The underlying purpose is "to protect the accused from hasty, improvident, or malicious prosecution and to discover whether there is a substantial basis for bringing the prosecution and further denying the accused his right to liberty." State v. Williams, 198 Wis.2d 516, 527, 544 N.W.2d 406 (1996) (quoting Bailey v. State, 65 Wis.2d 331, 344, 222 N.W.2d 871 (1974)).

¶ 56. In line with the text of § 970.03(1) and with its underlying purpose, the court need not find probable cause as to the specific felony charged in the complaint as long as the state presents enough evidence to establish probable cause to believe that some felony has been committed by the defendant and that the defendant should be bound over for trial. See Wittke v. State ex rel. Smith, 80 Wis.2d 332, 352, 259 N.W.2d 515 (1977).

¶ 57. In contrast, under § 970.032(1), the court must determine whether there is probable cause to believe that the juvenile has committed " the violation" of which he or she is accused in the criminal complaint. This finding is required not only to protect the juvenile from hasty, improvident, or malicious prosecution, but also to assure that the criminal court has "exclusive original jurisdiction" of the juvenile by virtue of the juvenile's probable violation of one of the offenses enumerated in Wis. Stat. §§ 938.183(1)(a), (am), (ar), (b), or (c). The latter purpose is the more important purpose under this statute because "[i]f the court does not make that finding, the court shall order that the juvenile be discharged," although proceedings may be brought regarding the juvenile under Chapter 938. Wis. Stat. § 970.032(1) (emphasis added).

¶ 58. This narrow reading of Wis. Stat. § 970.032(1) creates a pleading problem for the state. In 1993 Wis. Act 98, newly created § 970.032(1) applied to only two offenses: Wis. Stat. §§ 940.20(1) and 946.43, corresponding to the two offenses in then § 48.183. In 1995 Wis. Stat. § 970.032(1) was made applicable to many additional offenses corresponding to the contents of newly created § 938.183(1). Today Wis. Stat. § 970.032(1) applies to multiple offenses incorporated into Wis. Stat. § 938.183(1)(a), (am), (ar), (b), or (c), including "any state criminal law" under certain circumstances. See Wis. Stat. § 938.183(1)(ar), (b), and (c).

¶ 59. Section § 938.183(1)(am) includes a juvenile "who is alleged to have attempted or committed a violation of s. 940.01." Significantly, Wis. Stat. § 940.01(2) spells out mitigating circumstances. These are affirmative defenses "which mitigate the offense to 2nd-degree intentional homicide under § 940.05." Wis. Stat. § 940.01(2). Paragraph (am) also applies to juveniles who allegedly commit a violation of Wis. Stat. § 940.02 (first-degree reckless homicide) or a violation of § 940.05 (second-degree intentional homicide).

¶ 60. The problem for the state is that if the court must find probable cause for the specific offense charged in the complaint, the defendant has a strong incentive and should have the right to attempt to negate that specific offense during the preliminary examination — to prevent the state from prevailing on the specific offense charged, or possibly, to deprive the criminal court of its "exclusive original jurisdiction."

¶ 61. . Two examples will illustrate the point. In this case, the State charged Kleser with a violation of § 940.01(1), first-degree intentional homicide. Kleser waived his preliminary examination. If he had not waived his preliminary examination, he might have tried to introduce evidence of mitigating circumstances to move the charge from a violation of § 940.01(1) to a violation of § 940.05.

¶ 62. In a preliminary examination under Wis. Stat. § 970.032(1), a defendant should be able to introduce evidence in an effort to get the charge reduced. Correspondingly, the state should be able to amend the complaint to reflect the evidence adduced, if it desires to do so, rather than lose jurisdiction because it has failed to establish probable cause of "the violation" charged. See Wis. Stat. § 971.29(1).

¶ 63. It must be recognized that if the state establishes probable cause to believe that the defendant has violated either Wis. Stat. §§ 940.01(1) or 940.05, the criminal court would still have exclusive original jurisdiction over the juvenile.

¶ 64. The second example is more problematic. Suppose the state charged a juvenile with first-degree reckless homicide. Wis. Stat. § 940.02(1) ("Whoever recklessly causes the death of another human being under circumstances which show utter disregard for human life"). This statute is one of the offenses listed in § 938.183(1)(am), and the criminal court is given "exclusive original jurisdiction" over a juvenile charged with this offense if the juvenile was 10 years old at the time of the offense. In contrast, second-degree reckless homicide ("Whoever recklessly causes the death of another human being") is not one of the offenses enumerated in § 938.183(1)(am) and does not give the criminal court "exclusive original jurisdiction" over the juvenile. Hence, if the court were to find probable cause to believe that the juvenile violated § 940.06 but not § 940.02, the statute would require the court to "order that the juvenile be discharged," Wis. Stat. § 970.032(1), subject to a new proceeding under Chapter 938, because the court did not find probable cause for "the violation" charged and the state could not amend the charge and still qualify under § 938.183(1)(am).

¶ 65. The point is that because the preliminary examination under Wis. Stat. § 970.032(1) is quite different from the preliminary examination under § 970.03, the defendant must be given some latitude in attacking the specific offense charged if a successful attack would alter the crime charged or negate the exclusive original jurisdiction of the criminal court.

¶ 66. In this case, the defendant waived his preliminary examination. As a result, the circuit court found probable cause to believe that Kleser had committed a first-degree intentional homicide under Wis. Stat. § 940.01(1). We see no basis for contradicting that finding after the preliminary examination except at trial. When Kleser waived his preliminary examination, he conceded the State's right to try him for first-degree intentional homicide, either in criminal court or in juvenile court.

¶ 67. This brings us to the reverse waiver procedure set out in Wis. Stat. § 970.032(2). This procedure gives a juvenile under adult court jurisdiction an opportunity to prove that notwithstanding the court's finding of probable cause of the offense or offenses charged, the juvenile's case should be transferred to juvenile court for disposition. To achieve this objective, the burden is upon the juvenile to prove by a preponderance of the evidence all three elements outlined in subsection (2).

¶ 68. Subsection (2)(b) requires the juvenile to prove that transferring jurisdiction to juvenile court "would not depreciate the seriousness of the offense." This requirement, by its very nature, suggests that § 970.032(2) permits the juvenile to supplement the facts offered by the state about the charged offense so that the criminal court is able to evaluate the "seriousness of the offense" in considering reverse waiver. Stated differently, the purpose of permitting additional factual evidence is not to contradict the previous finding of probable cause for "the violation" but rather to put the established "violation" in a factual context in an effort to prove that transferring jurisdiction to juvenile court would not depreciate the seriousness of that offense.

¶ 69. Nothing in § 970.032(2) places a limitation on the evidence at a reverse waiver hearing so long as the evidence is admissible under the rules of evidence and is relevant to one or more of the three elements set out in the subsection. Having said that, it appears to us that the legislature did not intend the reverse waiver hearing to be a minitrial. Accordingly, the court has authority to control the admission of evidence to assure that a juvenile adheres to the statutory scheme — such as recognition of "the violation" already established — and to prevent the hearing from consuming unnecessary time and resources.

¶ 70. The State argues that in a reverse waiver hearing, the evidence with respect to "the seriousness of the offense" should be limited to the specific facts brought out at the preliminary examination or stated in the complaint. We are unable to agree. State v. Dominic E.W., 218 Wis.2d 52, 579 N.W.2d 282 (Ct. App. 1998), sheds light on this contention.

¶ 71. In Dominic E.W., the circuit court ordered reverse waiver on a charge of battery to a correctional officer. Id. at 55. The circuit court considered various factors regarding the "seriousness of the offense," including the fact that Dominic's battery was neither premeditated nor confrontational and that Dominic had few, if any, behavioral issues prior to the battery. Id. at 57-58. In a footnote, the court of appeals noted:

The State takes issue with the trial court's consideration of the seriousness of the offense. The State seeks to equate all batteries from misdemeanor battery to a battery causing substantial bodily harm as equally serious and exposing vulnerable officers to increased violence. As with the first criterion, the court must decide under the specific facts and circumstances of the case how serious the offense was — whether it was an egregious type of battery, like the "vicious major attack" in State v. Verhagen, 198 Wis.2d 177, 192-93, 542 N.W.2d 189, 193-94 (Ct. App. 1995), or some lesser type of battery. Again, such weighing of the facts by the trial court is implicit in the reverse waiver statute.
Id. at 58 n. 6.

¶ 72. Dominic E.W. noted that the determination of seriousness is based on "the specific facts and circumstances of the case" and that "weighing of the facts by the trial court is implicit in the reverse waiver statute." Id. We believe this interpretation is correct. Dominic E.W. did not address whether the weighing is restricted to the facts used to establish probable cause, but the discussion implicates a more expansive interpretation of the word "offense" than that offered by the State. We see nothing in the plain language of § 970.032(2) that precludes the admission of evidence supplementing the facts used to establish probable cause, as long as the evidence is offered for the limited and proper purpose of proving that (1) if convicted, the juvenile could not receive adequate treatment in the criminal justice system; (2) transferring jurisdiction to juvenile court would not depreciate the seriousness of the offense; and (3) retaining jurisdiction is not necessary to deter the juvenile or other juveniles from committing the violation of which the juvenile is accused.

¶ 73. We believe Wis. Stat. § 938.18, which sets out the procedure for waiver of a juvenile into adult court, was a model for Wis. Stat. §§ 970.032(2) and supports our interpretation of it.

¶ 74. As mentioned previously in ¶¶ 43-44, supra, Wisconsin law provided a mechanism for waiver of a juvenile into adult court long before the present reverse waiver procedure was adopted. Under the current version of the waiver statute, a juvenile may be waived into adult court if the juvenile is alleged to have (1) committed certain felonies after the juvenile's 14th birthday; (2) committed a violation at the request or for the benefit of a gang after the juvenile's 14th birthday; or (3) violated any criminal law after the juvenile's 15th birthday. Wis. Stat. § 938.18(1) (2007-08). In these circumstances, the juvenile or the district attorney may file a petition for waiver. Wis. Stat. § 938.18(2).

¶ 75. The procedure employed and criteria established for waiver into criminal court under § 938.18 (2007-08) are more detailed than the procedure and criteria [elements] for reverse waiver to juvenile court under § 970.032(2). Nevertheless, the parallels are too obvious to ignore.

¶ 76. First, § 938.18(4) (2007-08) requires the juvenile court to determine whether the petition ("the matter") has prosecutive merit before proceeding to determine if it should waive jurisdiction. Wis. Stat. § 938.18(4)(a). The statute then specifies: "If a petition for waiver of jurisdiction is contested, the district attorney shall present relevant testimony and the court, after taking that testimony and considering other relevant evidence, shall base its decision whether to waive jurisdiction on the criteria specified in [§ 938.18(5)]." Wis. Stat. § 938.18(4)(b) (emphasis added).

¶ 77. Second, § 938.18(3) (2007-08) sets out a juvenile's rights at a waiver hearing. It specifies that the juvenile has the right to counsel and provides specific notice requirements for the hearing. Id. The statute then provides: "The juvenile has the right to present testimony on his or her own behalf including expert testimony and has the right to cross-examine witnesses." Wis. Stat. § 938.18(3)(b) (emphasis added).

¶ 78. Third, Wis. Stat. § 938.18(5) (2007-08) provides more detailed criteria to consider in determining waiver than is set out in Wis. Stat. § 970.032(2). These criteria include the personality of the juvenile, prior record of the juvenile, adequacy and suitability of treatment facilities, services, and procedure, and desirability of trial and disposition of the entire offense in one court. Wis. Stat. § 938.18(5). Although each of these criteria is described in detail, one factor is particularly relevant to the inquiry in this case: "The type and seriousness of the offense, including whether it was against persons or property and the extent to which it was committed in a violent, aggressive, premeditated or willful manner." Wis. Stat. § 938.18(5)(b) (emphasis added).

¶ 79. Fourth, § 938.18(6) (2007-08) requires that the court state its "finding" with respect to the waiver criteria on the record and waive jurisdiction "if the court determines on the record that there is clear and convincing evidence that it is contrary to the best interests of the juvenile or of the public to hear the case." Wis. Stat. § 938.18(6). The burden is on the state to prove the case for waiver by clear and convincing evidence. Id.

¶ 80. Both the state and the juvenile are accorded broad latitude to present their respective positions in a waiver hearing. In a contested hearing, the state is given the right to "present relevant testimony," which the court must consider along with "other relevant evidence" when deciding whether the waiver criteria have been met. Wis. Stat. § 938.18(4)(b) (2007-08). The juvenile also may present evidence, including expert testimony. Wis. Stat. § 938.18(3)(b). The statute's reference to the "type and seriousness of the offense" requires the court to consider the facts surrounding the alleged offense. Wis. Stat. § 938.18(5)(b). Taken together, these provisions suggest a broad scope of inquiry at a waiver hearing.

¶ 81. We recognize that Wis. Stat. § 938.18 (2007-08) and Wis. Stat. § 970.032(2) address different proceedings. The fact that the legislature included certain details in § 938.18 that it did not include in § 970.032(2) gives rise to a plausible inference that it did not intend to include all the details of one inquiry in the other. Nonetheless, we think such an interpretation would lead to an unreasonable result.

¶ 82. Wisconsin Stat. §§ 938.18 (2007-08) and 970.032(2) provide for essentially analogous procedures. The primary distinction between the two is in the allocation of burden. The state must prove the case for waiver by "clear and convincing evidence." Wis. Stat. § 938.18(6). The juvenile must prove reverse waiver by "preponderance of the evidence." Wis. Stat. § 970.032(2). It does not make sense to us that the legislature would permit the state to present all necessary evidence at a juvenile waiver hearing to meet its burden, but tie the hands of a juvenile in a reverse waiver hearing so that the juvenile did not have an equal opportunity to meet his burden in a comparable situation.

¶ 83. "Waiver of juvenile court jurisdiction is a `critically important' decision that entails depriving the juvenile and the public of the substantial protections the juvenile court system provides to the juvenile accused of committing a crime." T.R.B. v. State, 109 Wis.2d 179, 190-91 325 N.W.2d 329 (1982) (quoting Kent v. United States, 383 U.S. 541, 553, 556-57 (1966)). Reverse waiver is not less important to the juvenile offender or the community. We decline to interpret § 970.032(2) in a way that unduly restricts the juvenile's ability to meet his burden.

¶ 84. We conclude that the juvenile must be given reasonable latitude to offer admissible evidence for the purpose of meeting his burden to prove the three elements for reverse waiver under Wis. Stat. § 970.032(2). This includes evidence of "the violation" or the offense charged that supplements the facts used to establish probable cause. Stated differently, the defendant may offer additional factual evidence to put "the offense" in context so that the court can make an informed judgment on whether transferring the matter to juvenile court would "depreciate the seriousness of the offense." However, the juvenile may not offer evidence for the purpose of contradicting the offense charged because that offense has already been established in the preliminary examination.

C. Erroneous Exercise of Discretion

¶ 85. We next address whether the circuit court erroneously exercised its discretion in granting the reverse waiver to juvenile court. The State points to three different grounds on which the circuit court erroneously exercised its discretion. First, it argues that the circuit court substantively relied on hearsay testimony presented by Dr. Beyer. Second, it argues that the circuit court erred by permitting Dr. Beyer to imply that she believed Kleser's account of the offense was truthful. Third, it argues that the circuit court erred by allowing Dr. Beyer to testify as to Kleser's account of the offense while prohibiting the State's expert, Dr. Collins, from interviewing Kleser regarding the offense. The court of appeals held that the circuit court erred by substantively relying on hearsay, but did not address the two other issues. Kleser, 316 Wis.2d 825, ¶¶ 47, 51-52.

¶ 86. We agree with the court of appeals that Dr. Beyer's testimony regarding the facts of the offense constituted inadmissible hearsay and that the circuit court improperly relied upon it. We also hold that Dr. Beyer's testimony constituted improper vouching testimony. Finally, we hold that the circuit court erred by allowing Dr. Beyer to testify regarding Kleser's description of the offense while prohibiting Dr. Collins from interviewing Kleser regarding the offense.

1. Substantive Reliance on Hearsay

¶ 87. Kleser argues that the court of appeals incorrectly held that the circuit court erred by substantively relying on Dr. Beyer's hearsay testimony. Kleser concedes that "to the extent the trial court relied upon inadmissible hearsay, it erred." He reasons, however, that this error was harmless because other evidence in the record supported the circuit court's conclusion that Kleser acted out of rage and fear when he killed Adams.

¶ 88. The admissibility of evidence at a reverse waiver hearing is subject to the rules of evidence. "Chapters 901 to 911 [the rules of evidence] govern proceedings in the courts of the state of Wisconsin except as provided in ss. 911.01 and 972.11." Wis. Stat. § 901.01. Wisconsin Stat. § 911.01(2) provides that the rules of evidence "apply generally to proceedings in civil and criminal actions." Wisconsin Stat. § 911.01(4) then enumerates a list of situations in which the rules of evidence do not apply. Because a reverse waiver hearing is not listed as one of the specific circumstances in which the rules of evidence do not apply, we see no reason why the rules do not apply at a reverse waiver hearing.

¶ 89. Wisconsin Stat. § 972.11(1) also provides that "the rules of evidence and practice in civil actions shall be applicable in all criminal proceedings unless the context of a section or rule manifestly requires a different construction." Nothing in Wis. Stat. § 970.032(2) manifestly requires a different construction. Against this background, the court of appeals correctly held that "[w]here a statute does not specifically authorize hearsay, it is generally prohibited." Kleser, 316 Wis.2d 825, ¶ 46 (citing Wis. Stat. § 908.02). The rules of evidence, including the general prohibition on hearsay, apply to reverse waiver hearings.

¶ 90. Because the general prohibition on hearsay applies to reverse waiver hearings, we conclude that Dr. Beyer's testimony regarding the facts of the offense was inadmissible and that the circuit court erred in relying upon it. Dr.' Beyer, both in her testimony at the hearing and in her assessment of Kleser, extensively described the facts of the offense. Her assessment described the events of the night, prefacing these events with: "Kleser said . . ." Her testimony at the hearing regarding the events surrounding the homicide was in response to Kleser's attorney's request, "if you could explain what happened that night as far as you understand it." (Emphasis added.) Thus, Dr. Beyer's testimony was presented in terms of what actually happened. Kleser, however, did not take the stand, and there is no suggestion that Dr. Beyer had personal knowledge of the events.

¶ 91. We note that Dr. Beyer used Kleser's description of the offense to formulate her opinion that Kleser acted out of rage and fear. An expert may rely on inadmissible evidence in formulating an opinion, if the evidence is "of a type reasonably relied upon by experts in the particular field in forming opinions or inferences upon the subject." Wis. Stat. § 907.03. Even assuming that Kleser's hearsay was reasonably relied upon by an expert in Dr. Beyer's field, Wis. Stat. § 907.03 is not a hearsay exception, State v. Weber, 174 Wis.2d 98, 107, 496 N.W.2d 762 (Ct. App. 1993), and it does not render the underlying inadmissible testimony admissible, see State v. Watson, 227 Wis.2d 167, 199, 595 N.W.2d 403 (1999). By allowing Dr. Beyer to present Kleser's description of the offense, the court permitted Dr. Beyer to act as a conduit for inadmissible hearsay. This type of testimony is prohibited by the rules of evidence. See State v. Coogan, 154 Wis.2d 387, 399, 453 N.W.2d 186 (Ct. App. 1990) (holding that an expert may not "act as a conduit for inadmissible evidence").

There is no dispute that the court was permitted to consider Dr. Beyer's opinion and that Dr. Beyer's opinion could be based on inadmissible evidence. See Wis. Stat. § 907.0.3. But this does not permit the court to rely on the underlying inadmissible evidence. In State v. Watson, this court warned that "[t]he danger in permitting inadmissible hearsay to serve as the basis for expert opinions is that hearsay may reach the trier of fact through `the back door' of cross-examination if experts are asked to explain the bases for their opinions." State v. Watson, 227 Wis. 2d 167, 199, 595 N.W.2d 403 (1999). Professor Daniel Blinka has stated that "it cannot be gainsaid that Wis. Stat. § 907.03 is not a hearsay exception." 7 Daniel D. Blinka, Wisconsin Practice Series: Wisconsin Evidence § 702.604, at 622. He contrasts the federal rule permitting the otherwise inadmissible bases to go before a jury, which "creates some horrendous difficulties," with Wisconsin's rule that entrusts the circuit court with discretion. Even when the circuit court uses its discretion, it may allow inadmissible bases for expert opinions into evidence only "subject to a limiting instruction informing the jury that (if hearsay) the basis may not be used for substantive purposes." Id. at 624. This rule, applied when the judge is the trier of fact, prohibits the judge (as fact-finder) from relying on the substance of the inadmissible hearsay.

¶ 92. Kleser appears to argue that admission of this hearsay evidence was appropriate because it was used for the limited purpose of determining whether the transfer would depreciate the seriousness of the offense. We disagree. Although Kleser's brief accurately describes the ultimate issue for which the evidence was presented, there is no question that Dr. Beyer's testimony was presented for the truth of the matter asserted. See Wis. Stat. § 908.01(3) ("hearsay" is an out-of-court statement made by a person not testifying at a trial or hearing, offered at a trial or hearing "to prove the truth of the matter asserted"). Although the circuit court was asked to make a narrow legal determination about the seriousness of the offense, the court's determination was based on the purported "facts" of the offense as Dr. Beyer described them. Dr. Beyer acted as a conduit through which Kleser put these facts into evidence.

The fact that Dr. Beyer's testimony was used for the truth of the matter asserted is emphasized by the fact that her testimony was provided in response to Kleser's attorney's request to "explain what happened that night as far as you understand it." (Emphasis added.)

¶ 93. We have previously determined that details of the offense may be relevant to a determination of whether, under Wis. Stat. § 970.032(2), transferring jurisdiction of the case to juvenile court would depreciate the seriousness of the offense. These details, however, may reach the trier of fact only in accordance with the rules of evidence, whether through the testimony of the defendant, the testimony of another person with personal knowledge of the events, or a recognized exception to the hearsay rule.

¶ 94. Kleser contends that the court's reliance on any inadmissible hearsay constituted harmless error. Again, we disagree. An error will not warrant reversal if the error does not affect the substantial rights of the adverse party. Wis. Stat. § 805.18; see State v. Lindell, 2001 WI 108, ¶ 69, 245 Wis.2d 689, 629 N.W.2d 223 (harmless error statute applies in criminal proceedings). An error affects the substantial rights of a party if there is a reasonable probability of a different outcome, meaning a "probability sufficient to undermine confidence in the outcome." State v. Dyess, 124 Wis.2d 525, 545, 370 N.W.2d 222 (1985) (quoting Strickland v. Washington, 466 U.S. 668 (1984)).

¶ 95. A reasonable probability exists that the outcome would have been different without Dr. Beyer's hearsay testimony for two reasons. First, the circuit court clearly used Dr. Beyer's testimony as a basis for its findings. The court found that "Corey Kleser killed Ron Adams out of rage and fear after Ron Adams tried to assault [Kleser]." This finding closely parallels Dr. Beyer's testimony that the offense "was a rage reaction when [Kleser] was very fearful," as well as the account provided in Dr. Beyer's assessment of Kleser.

¶ 96. More important, Dr. Beyer's hearsay testimony and hearsay in her assessment of Kleser were the principal bases for the circuit court's finding that Kleser acted out of fear and rage, which in turn was the basis for her conclusion that transferring jurisdiction would not depreciate the seriousness of the offense. Kleser points to the circuit court's reliance on Kleser's statement to the police and a detective's testimony regarding the personal nature of the crime. These additional facts, by themselves, are not an adequate basis for the circuit court's conclusion that Kleser acted out of fear and rage. In light of the close parallels between the circuit court's decision and Dr. Beyer's testimony, it is clear that the testimony of the officers played a relatively minor role in the court's conclusion that Kleser acted out of fear and rage, compared to Dr. Beyer's testimony.

Dr. Beyer's testimony closely parallels her written report. Dr. Beyer testified on November 6, 2007. Detective Louis Johnson, who interviewed Kleser, and Lieutenant Terrence Gordon, who investigated the crime scene, did not testify until the following day. Consequently, Dr. Beyer could not and did not rely on Detective Johnson's testimony as a basis for her testimony.

Although Detective Johnson testified regarding his interview with Kleser, the circuit court did not rely on this testimony in its decision. In the decision, virtually the entire description of the facts of the offense was taken from Dr. Beyer's written report.
As noted repeatedly, the burden of proof is on the defendant in a reverse waiver hearing. We can only speculate what would have transpired if Dr. Beyer had given nothing more than her opinion. The State might not have called Detective Johnson to testify, or it might have attempted to limit the detective's testimony in cross-examination. The admission of Dr. Beyer's hearsay testimony of Kleser's version of the offense changed the hearing.

¶ 97. Kleser argues that the court exercised its discretion properly, even without the erroneous bases for its decision, because "there is no requirement that the court consider one factor more than any others." While this is true, the reverse waiver statute requires the juvenile to prove each of the three elements by preponderance of the evidence. Wis. Stat. § 970.032(2) (requiring the juvenile to prove by preponderance of the evidence "all of the following"). If the juvenile fails to prove one of these elements, the court cannot grant the reverse waiver, no matter how compelling the other two elements may be. Based on the circuit court's decision, it is clear that without Dr. Beyer's hearsay testimony, Kleser would not have sustained his burden of proving that transferring jurisdiction would not depreciate the seriousness of the offense. Therefore, the court erroneously exercised its discretion in granting reverse waiver.

2. Dr. Beyer's Testimony Regarding Kleser's Truthfulness

¶ 98. We next address whether the circuit court erred by relying on Dr. Beyer's testimony as to the truthfulness of Kleser's hearsay. The State argues that this testimony violated the principles articulated in Jensen, 147 Wis.2d 240, and Haseltine, 120 Wis.2d 92. The court of appeals did not address this issue but assumed that Jensen and Haseltine would apply in a reverse waiver hearing. Kleser, 316 Wis.2d 825, ¶ 51. We agree with the court of appeals that the principles articulated in those cases apply, and hold that the circuit court erred by relying on Dr. Beyer's impermissible vouching testimony.

¶ 99. In Haseltine, the defendant was charged with sexual contact with his daughter. Haseltine, 120 Wis. 2d at 93. The state presented testimony of a psychiatrist who opined that there "was no doubt whatsoever" that the daughter was an incest victim. Id. at 96. The court of appeals held that this testimony was impermissible vouching testimony because a jury can determine credibility without the help of expert opinion. Id. at 96. It explained:

The opinion that Haseltine's daughter was an incest victim is an opinion that she was telling the truth. There is no indication that Haseltine's daughter had any physical or mental disorder that might affect her credibility. No witness, expert or otherwise, should be permitted to give an opinion that another mentally and physically competent witness is telling the truth.
Id. (citations omitted).

¶ 100. In Jensen, the defendant was charged with sexually assaulting his stepdaughter, L.J. Jensen, 147 Wis.2d at 243. The state called the guidance counselor at L.J.'s school, who testified that L.J.'s behavior in school was consistent with children who were*the victims of sexual abuse. Id. at 247. The defendant argued that this testimony was inadmissible for several reasons, one of which was that it amounted to testimony about whether L.J. was telling the truth. Id. at 249. The court disagreed. It held that the testimony did not constitute impermissible vouching evidence, but was instead offered to (1) explain the context in which L.J. told the guidance counselor about the assault; and (2) rebut the defense's theory that L.J. fabricated the charges. Id. at 250. Because a sexual assault victim's behavior "may not conform to commonly held expectations of how a victim reacts to sexual assault," such expert testimony may be helpful to a jury. Id. at 252.

¶ 101. We agree with the State that Dr. Beyer's account of the homicide offense here cannot be distinguished from the core principles of Jensen and Haseltine. Dr. Beyer testified: "My opinion of the offense as [Kleser] described it was that it was a rage reaction when he was very fearful." While she did preface many of her statements with "Kleser reported," she also described the offense in response to. defense counsel's request that she "explain what happened that night as far as you understand it." (Emphasis added.)

¶ 102. We are not persuaded that the vouching rule becomes inapplicable simply because a witness does not use specific words such as "I believe X is telling the truth," or is inapplicable because X never testified as a witness. There is no requirement that an expert explicitly testify that she believes a person is telling the truth for the expert's opinion to constitute improper vouching testimony. In Haseltine, for example, the expert testified only implicitly that the victim was telling the truth. Haseltine, 120 Wis.2d at 96. A requirement that specific words be used would permit the rule to be circumvented easily.

¶ 103. Nor is there any reason to exclude the Haseltine rule in situations where a person like Kleser, whose story is vouched for by a witness, never actually testifies. Permitting a witness to testify, implicitly or explicitly, that hearsay is true would aggravate an already bad situation.

¶ 104. The essence of the rule prohibiting vouching testimony is that such testimony invades the province of the fact-finder as the sole determiner of credibility. Id. ("The credibility of a witness is ordinarily something a lay juror can knowledgeably determine without the help of an expert opinion."). This concern applies even when the expert vouches for the credibility of someone who does not testify. When the evidence vouched for is a hearsay declaration, the fact-finder has already been deprived of the opportunity to personally witness the declarant's testimony. Allowing an expert to present hearsay testimony and then give an opinion as to the credibility of that hearsay invades the province of the fact-finder even more than allowing an expert to testify to the credibility of an in-court witness. In sum, the principles underlying the rule from Jensen and Haseltine apply where an expert vouches for an out-of-court declarant.

¶ 105. Dr. Beyer had no specialized ability to assess the truthfulness of Kleser's account. Although she described the events of the offense, there is no question that she had no personal knowledge of those events. Thus, her testimony impermissibly suggested both that she believed Kleser's account and that the events actually unfolded as Kleser had portrayed them.

The Arizona Supreme Court has explained: "Psychologists and psychiatrists are not, and do not claim to be, experts at discerning truth. Psychiatrists are trained to accept facts provided by their patients, not to act as judges of patients' credibility." State v. Moran, 728 E.2d 248, 255 (Ariz. 1986) (citing People v. Bledsoe, 681 P.2d 291, 300 (Cal. 1984)).

In other words, besides implicitly testifying that she believed Kleser's description, Dr. Beyer also testified that certain events, of which she did not have personal knowledge, occurred. Such testimony is clearly impermissible. Wis. Stat. § 906.02 ("A witness may not testify to a matter unless evidence is introduced sufficient to support a finding that the witness has personal knowledge of the matter.").

¶ 106. Kleser suggests that the State's vouching argument is essentially indistinguishable from its argument that Dr. Beyer's testimony was hearsay, because both are premised on the fact that Dr. Beyer acted as a "conduit" for Kleser's testimony. As we see it, Dr. Beyer's objectionable testimony was inadmissible for two distinct reasons: (1) because it was hearsay; and (2) because Dr. Beyer implicitly vouched for that hearsay. Thus, her description of what Kleser said was inadmissible for one reason, and her explanation of what happened the night of the events, which implied that Dr. Beyer believed what Kleser said, is inadmissible for another reason.

¶ 107. Finally, Kleser argues that, if the circuit court erred by relying upon Dr. Beyer's opinion as to the truthfulness of the statements, such error was harmless. Although we are unable to ascertain fully what weight the circuit court gave to Dr. Beyer's implied vouching of Kleser, the court clearly relied on the testimony enough to believe that the story was true. Therefore, the circuit court's reliance on Dr. Beyer's inadmissible vouching testimony was not harmless error.

3. Refusal to Allow the State's Expert to Interview Kleser Regarding the Facts of the Offense

¶ 108. We next address whether the circuit court erred by allowing Dr. Beyer to testify as to the facts of the homicide offense without permitting the State's expert, Dr. Collins, to examine Kleser regarding the facts of the offense. Kleser argues that the circuit court's decision, attempting to balance the State's interests against Kleser's privilege against self-incrimination, was within the circuit court's discretion, particularly in light of the fact that there was no established law for the circuit court to follow.

¶ 109. We conclude that the circuit court erroneously exercised its discretion by refusing to allow Dr. Collins to interview Kleser regarding the facts of the offense. In reaching this conclusion, we conclude first that Kleser waived his privilege against self-incrimination by putting his account of the offense into issue through his expert. We conclude second that principles of fair play entitled the State to an opportunity to rebut Kleser's uncorroborated account of the offense.

¶ 110. This court addressed a defendant's waiver of the privilege against self-incrimination in State v. Davis, 2002 WI 75, 254 Wis.2d 1, 645 N.W.2d 913. In Davis, this court addressed whether a defendant may present Richard A.P. testimony, which is "expert testimony to show that the defendant lacks the characteristics of a sexual offender and is therefore unlikely to have committed the alleged sexual assault." Id., ¶ 9. After setting out the requirements for the admission of Richard A.P. evidence, the court focused on whether a defendant who intends to introduce Richard A.P. evidence waives his privilege against self-incrimination and may be Compelled to undergo an examination by the state's expert. Id., ¶ 27.

The name of this evidence derives from State v. Richard A.P., 223 Wis.2d 777, 791, 589 N.W.2d 674 (Ct. App. 1998), in which the court of appeals permitted an expert to testify that the defendant "did not show any evidence of any diagnosable sexual disorder."

¶ 111. The court looked at two approaches to the issue of whether a defendant may be compelled to undergo an examination by a state expert. The court noted that some courts conclude that a compulsory examination is constitutionally permissible, not because the defendant has waived the right to be free from self-incrimination, but because the state must be afforded the same opportunity to obtain the type and quality of psychological evaluation as the defendant when the defendant raises the issue of his mental capacity. Id., ¶ 34. "The overriding concern in such cases is that the finder of fact must be given a fair and full assessment of the defendant's culpability when the defendant raises this issue." Id. In contrast, other courts have held that a compulsory examination by the state is permissible because the defendant has waived the privilege against self-incrimination by showing his intent to introduce expert psychiatric testimony in support of a defense related to his mental capacity. Id., ¶ 35.

¶ 112. The Davis court approved State v. Briand, 547 A.2d 235 (N.H. 1988), a New Hampshire case involving a defendant who raised battered woman's syndrome, to conclude that a compulsory examination could occur only after the defendant waived her right against self-incrimination. Davis, 254 Wis.2d 1, ¶ 36. The Davis court quoted the New Hampshire court:

Because the expert's testimony is thus predicated on the defendant's statements, the latter are explicitly or implicitly placed in evidence through the testimony of the expert during his direct and cross-examination. Since a defendant would waive his privilege against compelled self-incrimination if he took the stand and made those same statements himself, his decision to introduce his account of relevant facts indirectly through an expert witness should likewise be treated as a waiver obligating him to provide the same access to the State's expert that he has given to his own.
Id., ¶ 36 (quoting Briand, 547 A.2d at 239).

¶ 113. The court held that Davis did not waive his right simply by presenting Richard A.P. evidence, because such evidence was not a direct challenge to an element of the crime. Id., ¶ 37. But the court, echoing Briand, held that waiver may occur if the introduction of evidence amounts "to nothing more than the defendant's own denial of the crime through a surrogate." Id., ¶ 39.

¶ 114. The facts of this case are closer to Briand than to Davis, in that Kleser waived his privilege against self-incrimination by putting his account of the offense into issue through his expert. We find Davis's explanation of the circumstances in which a defendant (introducing Richard A.P. evidence) waives his privilege against self-incrimination to be particularly apt here:

If [the defendant's] disclosure statement shows that the expert will either explicitly or implicitly provide testimony regarding relevant facts surrounding the alleged crime that amounts to the defendant's own denial of the crime, the court may then order the defendant to undergo a reciprocal examination from the state based on the fact that the defendant has waived his or her right against self-incrimination. In this way, the defendant is permitted to introduce expert opinion testimony pursuant to Richard A.P. but restricted from introducing statements that amount to nothing more than the defendant's own statements on the crime.
Id., ¶ 40.

¶ 115. Kleser argues that this reasoning from Davis is not applicable because Davis specifically pertained to Richard A.P. evidence as it implicated the defendant's guilt or innocence. We disagree. Although the issue at a reverse waiver hearing is not guilt or innocence, we see no reason why a different rule should apply when the defendant is seeking reverse waiver under Wis. Stat. § 970.032(2). The reasoning from Davis is not limited to cases where the defendant was presenting Richard A.P. evidence to prove his innocence. Rather, the relevant inquiry from Davis is whether "the defendant uses the expert as a surrogate to assert his or her own statements about facts on the crime and thereby waives the right against self-incrimination." Davis, 254 Wis.2d 1, ¶ 3. In Davis, because the expert evidence was "circumstantial evidence of [the defendant's] innocence," the state could adequately rebut the testimony without a reciprocal examination. Id., ¶ 38. Here, on other hand, Kleser waived his right against self-incrimination by using Dr. Beyer as a surrogate to assert his own statements about the crime, and the State was put at an unfair disadvantage when the court prohibited Dr. Collins from interviewing Kleser regarding the offense.

A number of courts, generally addressing the situation in which a defendant places his mental state at issue, have reasoned that the state would be at a disadvantage if it were not allowed to independently examine the defendant. See Estelle v. Smith, 451 U.S. 454, 465 (1981) ("When a defendant asserts the insanity defense and introduces supporting psychiatric testimony, his silence may deprive the State of the only effective means it has of controverting his proof on an issue that he interjected into the case."); State v. Skackart, 858 E2d 639, 645 (Ariz. 1993) ("To hold otherwise would deprive the state of the only adequate means to contest the conclusions of a defense psychiatric expert."); Mitchell v. State, 192 E3d 721, 723 (Nev. 2008) (not allowing the state to examine "would permit [the defendant] to enjoy the unfair asymmetry of being able to introduce defense expert witness testimony based upon personal interviews while denying State expert witnesses the same access").

¶ 116. Kleser contends that, because Dr. Collins had sufficient bases for her opinion, the State was not harmed by the circuit court's ruling. But the State had no practical opportunity to rebut Kleser's account of what happened the night of the offense. Because Kleser was not on the stand, the State could not cross-examine him. The State was limited to rebutting Dr. Beyer's conclusions — which were based on Kleser's first-hand account of the offense — using only Dr. Beyer's examination of Kleser, the criminal complaint, and the testimony of police officers. Thus, the State was at a serious disadvantage in attempting to rebut Dr. Beyer's conclusion that Kleser committed the offense out of rage and fear.

Thus, the facts here are distinguishable from the facts in State v. Davis, 2002 WI 75, 254 Wis.2d 1, 645 N.W.2d 913. In Davis, the court ultimately found that the expert's testimony "did not require [the expert] to inquire into the relevant facts surrounding the case," id., ¶ 41, and therefore the state could effectively rebut the Richard A.P. evidence without allowing the state's expert to personally interview the defendant. Dr. Beyer's testimony is clearly unlike the testimony in Davis, because Dr. Beyer both based her opinion on Kleser's description of the offense and testified as to that description. This is precisely the situation that Davis held would constitute a waiver of the privilege against self-incrimination.

¶ 117. In sum, because Kleser waived his privilege against self-incrimination by putting the facts of the offense at issue through Dr. Beyer, and because this put the State at a serious disadvantage, the State was entitled to have an expert examine Kleser regarding those facts. Accordingly, we conclude that the circuit court erroneously exercised its discretion by allowing Dr. Beyer to testify regarding the offense while prohibiting Dr. Collins from interviewing Kleser regarding the same events. We, of course, are not suggesting that a person like Kleser must submit to an examination by a state expert in situations where the person has not waived the privilege against self-incrimination.

D. Appropriateness of Remand for a New Reverse Waiver Hearing

¶ 118. Finally, the State argues that the court of appeals decision to remand for a new reverse waiver hearing is moot because Kleser is now over the age of 18, and therefore no juvenile dispositions could be imposed upon him. Kleser argues that there is no mootness problem because the State filed a delinquency petition before Kleser turned 17, and therefore the juvenile court retains jurisdiction.

¶ 119. Under the Juvenile Justice Code, no dispositional options would be available for Kleser if the circuit court chose to order reverse waiver. Kleser correctly points out that the juvenile court would retain jurisdiction because a petition alleging Kleser delinquent was filed before he turned 17. See Wis. Stat. § 938.12(2). However, we do not see the juvenile court's authority to issue a dispositional order after the juvenile turns 18, as the statute repeatedly uses the phrase "made before the juvenile attains 18 years of age." See Wis. Stat. § 938.355(4).

¶ 120. Wisconsin Stat. § 938.34(4h) provides for a "serious juvenile offender program" that allows a juvenile to remain in custody until the age of 25. However, the statute providing for termination of dispositional orders states, in relevant part:

Except as provided in s. 938.368, an order under s. 938.34(4h) made before the juvenile attains 18 years of age shall apply for 5 years after the date on which the order is granted, if the juvenile is adjudicated delinquent [for certain offenses] or until the juvenile reaches 25 years of age, if the juvenile is adjudicated delinquent for committing an act that would be punishable as a Class A felony if committed by an adult.

Wis. Stat. § 938.355(4)(b) (emphasis added).

¶ 121. The fact that this statute explicitly permits placement in the program by a dispositional order "made before the juvenile attains 18 years of age," but contains no provision for a dispositional order made after 18 years of age, indicates that this dispositional option is not available after a juvenile turns 18. Therefore, if, somehow, Kleser's case were tried in juvenile court, he would not be eligible for placement in the serious juvenile offender program.

¶ 122. The fact that Kleser is no longer eligible for the serious offender program does not render this case moot. A case is moot when "a decision in the matter will not have any practical effect upon an existing legal controversy." Roth v. Lafarge School Dist., Bd. of Canvassers, 2004 WI 6, ¶ 13, 268 Wis.2d 335, 677 N.W.2d 599. Clearly, a decision in this matter would have a practical effect upon the legal controversy. This decision still affects whether Kleser goes free, is given another chance at a reverse waiver hearing, or remains in adult criminal court.

¶ 123. Although we conclude that this matter is not moot, we conclude that a remand for a new reverse waiver hearing is not appropriate under these facts. Remand is the appropriate course of action "[w]hen an appellate court is confronted with inadequate findings and the evidence respecting material facts is in dispute." Wurtz v. Fleischman, 97 Wis.2d 100, 108, 293 N.W.2d 155 (1980). That situation is not present here. Kleser was given a full opportunity to present evidence at the reverse waiver hearing. The circuit court erroneously exercised its discretion by admitting inadmissible evidence and relying on that evidence, but these errors did not render the record inadequate for us to make a determination.

¶ 124. To us, the record demonstrates that Kleser failed to meet his burden of proving that (1) if convicted, the juvenile could not receive adequate treatment in the criminal justice system; (2) transferring jurisdiction to juvenile court would not depreciate the seriousness of the offenses; and (3) retaining jurisdiction is not necessary to deter the juvenile or other juveniles from committing the violations of which the juvenile is accused. We do not perceive any error that prejudiced Kleser; rather, we see errors that prejudiced the State. Remanding for a new reverse waiver hearing would serve only to give Kleser another opportunity to meet a burden of proof that he failed to meet when given a full, fair opportunity to do so. This is not an appropriate reason to remand. See State v. Rewolinski, 159 Wis. 2d 1, 32, 464 N.W.2d 401 (1990) ("The rule permitting remand should not be used simply to give a party the opportunity to do what it should have done before."). Therefore, we conclude that remand is not appropriate under these facts.

¶ 125. As previously stated, the defendant in a reverse waiver hearing must prove three statutory elements by a preponderance of the evidence. Wis. Stat. § 970.032(2). Kleser was required to prove, notwithstanding probable cause that he committed first-degree intentional homicide (Wis. Stat. § 940.01(1)(a)), substantial battery (§ 940.19(2)), and battery by a prisoner (§ 940.20(1)), that his transfer from criminal court to juvenile court "would not depreciate the seriousness of the offenses or undermine deterrence.

¶ 126. In 1997 Dominic E.W. struck a counselor at the Ethan Allen School for Boys. Waukesha County Circuit Judge Lee Dreyfus Jr. conducted a reverse waiver hearing and transferred Dominic E.W. to juvenile court. The persuasive arguments of Dominic E.W.'s counsel at that time help us to put this case in perspective. Dominic's counsel argued:

Superintendents at Ethan Allen and Lincoln Hills Schools report that about 120 batteries to staff members have occurred since December, 1993. This is the first case m which a trial court exercised its discretion to transfer a battery to juvenile court.
. . . .
As the trial court also correctly noted, sec. 970.032(2) is discretionary, not mandatory. It does not require all juveniles charged with battery to correctional officers to be tried in adult court. By its unambiguous terms, it expressly gives judges the discretion to transfer jurisdiction over some of those cases back to juvenile court.
. . . .
With regard to the seriousness of the offense, at sec. 970.032(2)(b), the court expressed its sensitivity to the concerns addressed by the statute, when it stated "clearly it has to be viewed as a serious offense any time a staff member is injured or otherwise battered." On the other hand, when one considers the range of actions encompassed by the term "battery," there was ample evidence that this was a less serious battery than others.
[A]s the court noted, this battery was a simple battery which would have been a misdemeanor, had it not involved a staff member of a correctional facility. It did not cause substantial bodily harm or great bodily harm, and it did not involve a victim who was elderly or physically disabled, . . .
The "seriousness of the offense," must also be considered in the context of the type of crime which results in adult charges being filed pursuant to sec. 938.183 (1), Stats. Dominic's offense was clearly less serious than first-degree intentional homicide, first-degree reckless homicide, second-degree intentional homicide, and attempted first-degree intentional homicide, the offenses charged in adult court pursuant [to] sec. 938.183(1)(am), Stats. (Emphasis added.)

¶ 127. In this case, Kleser did not dispute that the deceased suffered at least 20 blows to the head, 30 stab wounds to the neck, and various other wounds. He admitted to a police officer that he stabbed the deceased in the neck multiple times with a pair of scissors after he realized that the man was still alive. He is charged with two additional felonies involving violence to a fellow prisoner. We conclude that transferring this 19-year-old defendant to juvenile court would depreciate the seriousness of the offenses and undermine deterrence.

IV CONCLUSION

¶ 128. We conclude, first, that a juvenile has a right to a reverse waiver hearing after the criminal court finds probable cause to believe that the juvenile has committed the exclusive original jurisdiction violation or violations of which he is accused. In a reverse waiver hearing, the juvenile must prove all elements set out in § 970.032(2)(a), (b), and (c) by a prependerance of the evidence. If the juvenile fails to meet his burden of proof, he shall be retained for prosecution in the criminal court. Thus, the juvenile must be given reasonable latitude to offer admissible evidence to satisfy his burden on the three elements. This includes evidence about the offense, supplementing the facts used to establish probable cause, to put the offense in context. The juvenile may not offer evidence in the reverse waiver hearing for the purpose of contradicting the offense charged. The place to offer evidence for the purpose of contradicting the offense charged is the preliminary examination.

¶ 129. Second, we conclude that the circuit court erred in granting reverse waiver here, for three reasons. (1) The court substantively relied on inadmissible hearsay testimony from Dr. Beyer describing the events of the offense; (2) the court allowed Dr. Beyer to offer inadmissible opinion testimony regarding Kleser's truthfulness; and (3) the court erroneously prohibited the State's psychologist from interviewing Kleser regarding the facts of the offense while permitting Dr. Beyer to testify as a conduit for Kleser's account of the facts of the offense.

¶ 130. Finally, we conclude that remand for a new reverse waiver hearing would not be appropriate under these facts.

¶ 131. Consequently, we affirm the decision of the court of appeals reversing the circuit court order transferring jurisdiction of this case to the juvenile court, but we reverse the court of appeals' order remanding the case for a new reverse waiver hearing, and remand the case to adult criminal court for trial.

By the Court. — The decision of the court of appeals is affirmed in part and reversed in part, and the cause is remanded to the circuit court.

¶ 132. ANN WALSH BRADLEY, J. (concurring in part, dissenting in part).

I agree with the majority that the juvenile must be given reasonable latitude to offer admissible evidence for the purpose of meeting his burden to prove the three elements for reverse waiver. Majority op., ¶ 84. I also agree with the majority that the juvenile may offer evidence at the reverse waiver hearing that contradicts the offense charged as long as the proffered evidence is relevant to any of the three elements for reverse waiver under Wis. Stat. § 970.032. Id.

¶ 133. Although the majority correctly sets forth the law in much of its discussion, I disagree with the majority in its application of the law. Specifically, I part ways with the majority when it concludes that the circuit court erroneously exercised its discretion in its evidentiary rulings. Additionally, I disagree with the majority when it substitutes its judgment for that of the circuit court on the discretionary determination of whether a transfer to juvenile court would unduly depreciate the seriousness of the offense. Accordingly, I respectfully concur in part and dissent in part.

I

¶ 134. The majority concludes that the circuit court erred by (1) relying on inadmissible hearsay testimony from Dr. Beyer describing the events of the offense; (2) permitting Dr. Beyer to vouch for Kleser's credibility; and (3) prohibiting the State's psychologist from interviewing Kleser about the facts of the offense. It further concludes that the circuit court erroneously exercised its discretion because, as a matter of law, Kleser failed to prove that transferring the case to juvenile court would not unduly depreciate the seriousness of the offense. Id., ¶ 124.

¶ 135. Unlike the majority, I determine that the circuit court did not erroneously exercise its discretion: (1) even if the circuit court erroneously relied on hearsay testimony presented by Dr. Beyer; such reliance was not harmful because essentially the same information was presented through the testimony of another witness; (2) the record does not support the majority's conclusion that Dr. Beyer impermissibly vouched for Kleser's credibility; (3) the majority erroneously limits the flexibility of the circuit court to balance the competing interests of protecting the juvenile's Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination and the need of the State to present rebuttal testimony; and (4) the majority improperly substitutes its judgment for that of the circuit court when it concludes that the transfer would unduly depreciate the seriousness of the offense.

¶ 136. I conclude that this case should be remanded to the circuit court for a determination of whether, given the current age of the "juvenile," reverse waiver is appropriate or even feasible. If not, I agree with the majority that jurisdiction should remain in adult criminal court.

II

¶ 137. The majority correctly states that the court was permitted to consider Dr. Beyer's opinion and that Dr. Beyer's opinion could be based on inadmissible evidence. Id., ¶ 91, n. 9. Further, it explains that Wis. Stat. § 907.03 is not a hearsay exception, and an expert's reliance on inadmissible evidence to form an opinion does not render that evidence admissible. Id. These statements accurately describe the law.

¶ 138. However, in applying the law to these facts, the majority determines that "without Dr. Beyer's hearsay testimony, Kleser would not have sustained his burden of proving that transferring jurisdiction would not depreciate the seriousness of the offense." Id., ¶ 97. I do not necessarily agree with the majority's conclusion that Dr. Beyer's opinion contained inadmissible hearsay. However, even if it did, I conclude that the error was harmless and that without this evidence, Kleser would have sustained his burden.

See Daniel D. Blinka, Wisconsin Practice Series: Wisconsin Evidence, § 803.04 at 754-58 (3d ed. 2008) (discussing Wis. Stat. § 908.03(4), statements for purposes of medical diagnosis or treatment). "Put differently, the fact that an expert was consulted solely for the purpose of giving testimony affects only the weight to be given the statement, not admissibility." Id. at 756. `The rule expressly permits some latitude regarding statements which relate how the condition occurred, provided the cause of the affliction is reasonably pertinent to the diagnosis or treatment." Id. at 757.

¶ 139. The majority takes issue with the circuit court's reliance on facts presented by Dr. Beyer. It concludes that Dr. Beyer's hearsay testimony and report "were the principal bases for the circuit court's finding that Kleser acted out of fear and rage." Id., ¶ 96. This assertion is not supported by the record.

¶ 140. As the majority sets forth, Dr. Beyer testified that Kleser related the following facts about the night of the incident: Kleser drank a lot of alcohol that night. He received a phone call from Adams, who offered to pay him to pose nude, as he had done before. Kleser agreed. The "usual scenario" unfolded when he got to the apartment. Kleser was surprised when Adams wanted to have sex, and he told Adams no. Adams attacked him and tried to rape him. Kleser's pants were around his ankles, and he could not really move. Adams was on top of Kleser as they struggled. Adams was choking Kleser, who could not breathe. Kleser felt powerless and felt like he was going to pass out. Kleser grabbed a hammer and hit Adams until he could escape. Id., ¶ 28.

¶ 141. These facts closely parallel the facts that Kleser provided to Detective Johnson during a custodial interview. Both parties deemed Johnson's testimony admissible evidence. He testified that Kleser related the following facts: Kleser had met Adams several months before and had gone to Adams' apartment five or six times previously. Kleser would disrobe and "pose nude basically for Mr. Adams[.]".

¶ 142. Johnson testified that the night of the incident, "upon coming over to Mr. Adams' apartment, [] Mr. Adams wanted to engage in some type of sexual intercourse with him." Kleser "did not want to engage in having any type of sex with Mr. Adams." Kleser said that Adams "tried to force himself in him and he actually put his hands on Corey[.]" Adams "approached him and tried to stick his dick in his ass[.]" "[I]t was a physical altercation and struggle and something[.]" "[T]here was a point in time when Mr. Adams had grabbed him and tried to choke at him[.]" Kleser "said he grabbed a hammer" and that he was able to "fend [him] off."

¶ 143. The facts of the offense, as testified to by Dr. Beyer, are nearly identical to the facts later testified to by Detective Johnson. If the circuit court erred by permitting Dr. Beyer to testify about Kleser's account of the incident, I conclude that error was harmless.

¶ 144. The majority also takes issue with the circuit court's conclusion that Kleser killed Adams out of fear and rage. Id., ¶ 96. Yet, there is no reason that the circuit court should not have relied on Dr. Beyer's expert opinion that Kleser acted out of fear and rage. An expert is allowed to base an opinion on inadmissible evidence, and that expert can testify as to her opinion in court. The conclusion that Kleser acted out of fear and rage is an expert opinion. The majority acknowledges that the court was permitted to rely on Dr. Beyer's expert opinion. Therefore, the circuit court did not err by relying on Dr. Beyer's expert opinion that Kleser acted out of fear and rage.

In a footnote, the majority indicates that Dr. Beyer could not have relied on Detective Johnson's testimony in formulating her conclusion that Kleser acted out of fear and rage. Majority op., ¶ 96, n. 11. In making this assertion, the majority confuses the issues. Dr. Beyer did not need to rely on Detective Johnson's account of the facts. Because experts may rely on inadmissible evidence in formulating an opinion, Dr. Beyer was entitled to rely on Kleser's own description of the facts.

III

¶ 145. The majority also accurately explains that an expert cannot vouch for the credibility of a witness and that the expert need not explicitly state that she believes a person is telling the truth for the opinion to constitute improper vouching testimony. Id., ¶ 102. However, the majority errs in its application of these rules.

¶ 146. As the majority reports, Dr. Beyer never explicitly testified about the credibility of Kleser's account. Unlike the majority, I conclude that there was no implicit vouching, either. In fact, the majority treads on dangerous territory when it concludes as a matter of law that this type of expert testimony is a violation of the longstanding rule that prohibits a witness from testifying about the veracity of another witness. See State v. Haseltine, 120 Wis.2d 92, 352 N.W.2d 673 (Ct. App. 1984).

¶ 147. The majority acknowledges that Dr. Beyer prefaced many of her statements with the phrase, "Kleser reported." Majority op., ¶ 101. The only phrase the majority points to as improper vouching is actually a statement from Kleser's attorney, who requested that Dr. Beyer "explain what happened that night as far as you understand it." Id. It this context, it is clear that the attorney was asking Dr. Beyer to relate the events that Kleser had described, rather than asking her to offer an opinion about Kleser's truthfulness. The majority has not pointed to any portion of Dr. Beyer's testimony that offered an opinion on Kleser's credibility.

¶ 148. The questions asked by Kleser's attorney and the responses provided by Dr. Beyer are similar to questions and answers routinely made in courtrooms around the state. To elevate a question prefaced with "as you understand it" and the response "Kleser reported" to the height of a Haseltine violation sets up an unworkable evidentiary standard for litigants, attorneys, and the circuit courts.

IV

¶ 149. The majority concludes that the circuit court erroneously exercised its discretion by refusing to allow the State's psychologist to interview Kleser about the facts of the offense. Id., ¶ 109. It explains that "Kleser waived his privilege against self-incrimination by putting his account of the offense into issue through his expert." Id.

¶ 150. The United States Supreme Court has explained "if a defendant requests [a psychiatric] evaluation or presents psychiatric evidence, then, at the very least, the prosecution may rebut this presentation with evidence from the reports of the examination that the defendant requested." Buchanan v. Kentucky, 483 U.S. 402, 422-23 (1987). "The defendant would have no Fifth Amendment privilege against the introduction of this psychiatric testimony by the prosecution." Id. at 423.

¶ 151. Here, the primary purpose of expert testimony from both psychologists was to assess whether Kleser's treatment needs could be met in adult court. The record reflects that the circuit court was cognizant of the need to balance the State's right to present rebuttal testimony and Kleser's privilege against self-incrimination. It fashioned a solution where the State's psychologist could interview Kleser, without an attorney present, and ask him questions about any subject except for the facts of the offense.

¶ 152. Courts need the flexibility to fashion a solution to address these competing interests given the facts and procedure of the individual case. Here, I applaud the efforts of the circuit court judge in fashioning a solution to address the competing interests. The majority, instead, finds as a matter of law that it was an erroneous exercise of discretion.

¶ 153. The State's psychologist had access to the interview conducted by Detective Johnson and the interview conducted by Dr. Beyer. She was also permitted to examine Kleser, without an attorney present, about any subject except the facts of the offense. Based on her examination of Kleser and other sources, the State's psychologist was able to provide diagnoses "to a reasonable degree of professional certainty."

¶ 154. Given the competing interests of the State's right to rebut Dr. Beyer's conclusions and Kleser's privilege against self-incrimination, courts should be permitted flexibility to use their discretion and fashion a reasonable solution. I conclude that the balance struck by the circuit court was not an erroneous exercise of discretion.

V

¶ 155. Finally, the majority concludes — apparently as a matter of law — that transferring the case to juvenile court would unduly depreciate the seriousness of the offense. Majority op., ¶ 127. In so concluding, it substitutes its own judgment for the circuit court's exercise of discretion.

¶ 156. There are some determinations that seem quintessentially within the province of the circuit court's sound exercise of discretion, and a circuit court should be accorded great latitude when making these discretionary determinations. I conclude that the determination of whether transfer to juvenile court would unduly depreciate the seriousness of the offense is one such determination. "A decision to retain or transfer jurisdiction in a reverse waiver situation [under Wis. Stat. § 970.032] is a discretionary decision for the trial court." State v. Dominic E.W., 218 Wis.2d 52, 56, 579 N.W.2d 282 (Ct. App. 1998).

¶ 157. Each day, courts around this state make a similar determination. During sentencing, a court must consider probation as the first alternative, but may reject probation if it finds that it would "unduly depreciate the seriousness of the offense." State v. Gallion, 2004 WI 42, ¶ 44, 270 Wis.2d 535, 678 N.W.2d 197. I find no principled distinction between the degree of latitude that should be accorded to these discretionary determinations. If an appellate court can substitute its judgment for that of the circuit court and determine as a matter of law that transfer to juvenile court would unduly depreciate the seriousness of the offense, an appellate court can do likewise when assessing whether probation unduly depreciates the seriousness of the offense. This could invite countless appeals.

¶ 158. An appellate court should sustain a discretionary decision if the circuit court examined the relevant facts, applied a proper standard of law, and using a demonstrated rational process, reached a decision that a reasonable judge could reach. Loy v. Bunderson, 107 Wis.2d 400, 414-15, 320 N.W.2d 175 (1982). I conclude that is what the circuit court did here. Absent an erroneous exercise of discretion, an appellate court should not substitute its own judgment for that of the circuit court — even if it would have decided the issue differently. See Kolupar v. Wilde Pontiac Cadillac, Inc., 2004 WI 112, ¶ 22, 275 Wis. 2d 1, 683 N.W.2d 58.

¶ 159. Because I conclude that the circuit court did not erroneously exercise its discretion, I would affirm its reverse waiver determination. However, given the passage of time and the current age of the "juvenile," I recognize that reverse waiver may no longer be appropriate or even feasible. On remand, I would instruct the circuit court to determine if reverse waiver is still appropriate. If the circuit court determines that it is not, jurisdiction should remain in adult criminal court. For the reasons set forth above, I respectfully concur in part and dissent in part.

¶ 160. I am authorized to state that Chief Justice SHIRLEY S. ABRAHAMSON joins this concurrence/dissent.